{"id":417,"date":"2015-06-01T18:10:16","date_gmt":"2015-06-01T17:10:16","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/skro.hellabeth.com\/?p=417"},"modified":"2015-08-27T15:56:32","modified_gmt":"2015-08-27T14:56:32","slug":"catholicisme-et-consequences-ep-1-avoir-tort-avec-rome","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/skro.hellabeth.com\/?p=417","title":{"rendered":"Catholicisme et cons\u00e9quences ep. 1 &#8211; Avoir tort avec Rome"},"content":{"rendered":"<p><em>Ce devait \u00eatre un seul billet, mais je me suis rendu compte que ce serait trop long, trop fouillis, et que vous ne l&rsquo;auriez pas avant un temps certain vu mon rythme al\u00e9atoire d&rsquo;\u00e9criture, alors je l&rsquo;ai d\u00e9coup\u00e9 en plusieurs parties.<\/em> <em>Voici donc le premier volet de Catholicisme et cons\u00e9quences.<\/em><\/p>\n<p>Il y a quelques jours a \u00e9merg\u00e9 gr\u00e2ce \u00e0 ma TL<span class=\"footnote_referrer\"><a role=\"button\" tabindex=\"0\" onclick=\"footnote_moveToReference_417_1('footnote_plugin_reference_417_1_1');\" onkeypress=\"footnote_moveToReference_417_1('footnote_plugin_reference_417_1_1');\" ><sup id=\"footnote_plugin_tooltip_417_1_1\" class=\"footnote_plugin_tooltip_text\">[1]<\/sup><\/a><span id=\"footnote_plugin_tooltip_text_417_1_1\" class=\"footnote_tooltip\">oui, il se passe toujours quelque chose sur ma TL Twitter, qui pourrait alimenter quelqu\u2019un de plus prolixe que moi \u00e0 toute heure du jour ou de la nuit<\/span><\/span><script type=\"text\/javascript\"> jQuery('#footnote_plugin_tooltip_417_1_1').tooltip({ tip: '#footnote_plugin_tooltip_text_417_1_1', tipClass: 'footnote_tooltip', effect: 'fade', predelay: 0, fadeInSpeed: 200, delay: 400, fadeOutSpeed: 200, position: 'top center', relative: true, offset: [-7, 0], });<\/script> un embryon de d\u00e9bat par billets de blogs interpos\u00e9s sur la question de la soumission au Magist\u00e8re romain<span class=\"footnote_referrer\"><a role=\"button\" tabindex=\"0\" onclick=\"footnote_moveToReference_417_1('footnote_plugin_reference_417_1_2');\" onkeypress=\"footnote_moveToReference_417_1('footnote_plugin_reference_417_1_2');\" ><sup id=\"footnote_plugin_tooltip_417_1_2\" class=\"footnote_plugin_tooltip_text\">[2]<\/sup><\/a><span id=\"footnote_plugin_tooltip_text_417_1_2\" class=\"footnote_tooltip\">oui, \u00e7a va \u00eatre un billet catholico-centr\u00e9. Vous pouvez encore partir si \u00e7a ne vous int\u00e9resse pas<\/span><\/span><script type=\"text\/javascript\"> jQuery('#footnote_plugin_tooltip_417_1_2').tooltip({ tip: '#footnote_plugin_tooltip_text_417_1_2', tipClass: 'footnote_tooltip', effect: 'fade', predelay: 0, fadeInSpeed: 200, delay: 400, fadeOutSpeed: 200, position: 'top center', relative: true, offset: [-7, 0], });<\/script>.<\/p>\n<p><!--more--><\/p>\n<p>Les deux points de vue en pr\u00e9sence se r\u00e9sumaient en gros<span class=\"footnote_referrer\"><a role=\"button\" tabindex=\"0\" onclick=\"footnote_moveToReference_417_1('footnote_plugin_reference_417_1_3');\" onkeypress=\"footnote_moveToReference_417_1('footnote_plugin_reference_417_1_3');\" ><sup id=\"footnote_plugin_tooltip_417_1_3\" class=\"footnote_plugin_tooltip_text\">[3]<\/sup><\/a><span id=\"footnote_plugin_tooltip_text_417_1_3\" class=\"footnote_tooltip\">je fais de tr\u00e8s grandes lignes qui correspondent \u00e0 ce que j\u2019ai retir\u00e9 des interventions. Je me suis peut-\u00eatre foutu le doigt dans l\u2019\u0153il jusqu\u2019\u00e0 peu pr\u00e8s l\u00e0, aussi invit\u00e9-je les&nbsp;&#x2026; <span class=\"footnote_tooltip_continue\"  onclick=\"footnote_moveToReference_417_1('footnote_plugin_reference_417_1_3');\">Continue reading<\/span><\/span><\/span><script type=\"text\/javascript\"> jQuery('#footnote_plugin_tooltip_417_1_3').tooltip({ tip: '#footnote_plugin_tooltip_text_417_1_3', tipClass: 'footnote_tooltip', effect: 'fade', predelay: 0, fadeInSpeed: 200, delay: 400, fadeOutSpeed: 200, position: 'top center', relative: true, offset: [-7, 0], });<\/script> \u00e0\u00a0:<\/p>\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/cahierslibres.fr\/2015\/05\/liberes-ou-dechires\/\">D\u2019un c\u00f4t\u00e9<\/a> une confiance en l\u2019Eglise et donc une acceptation de sa doctrine<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/aigreurs-administratives.blogspot.fr\/2015\/05\/pourquoi-je-suis-reste-catholique.html\">De l\u2019autre<\/a>, un attachement \u00e0 l\u2019Eglise malgr\u00e9 sa doctrine<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p><em>La pierre d\u2019achoppement de la doctrine du moment concerne bien \u00e9videmment les questions de la famille, mais cela fait \u00e9cho chez moi \u00e0 d\u2019autres affrontements, par exemple dans le domaine de la liturgie\u2026<\/em><\/p>\n<p>Pour ma part, j\u2019ai des probl\u00e8mes avec les deux attitudes\u00a0:<\/p>\n<p>Du c\u00f4t\u00e9 du \u00ab\u00a0malgr\u00e9\u00a0\u00bb, j\u2019ai tendance \u00e0 appeler \u00e0 la facilit\u00e9. Dire que l\u2019Eglise se plante quand elle ne va pas dans le sens de mes aspirations, je trouve que cela fait un peu \u00ab\u00a0religion \u00e0 la carte\u00a0\u00bb quand m\u00eame.<\/p>\n<p>Du c\u00f4t\u00e9 de la confiance, j\u2019ai toujours peur de cette tentation de l\u2019aveuglement qui aboutit assez souvent dans le d\u00e9bat \u00e0 des arguments d\u2019autorit\u00e9s du type \u00ab\u00a0l\u2019Eglise dit que [\u2026] alors c\u2019est bien\u00a0\u00bb<span class=\"footnote_referrer\"><a role=\"button\" tabindex=\"0\" onclick=\"footnote_moveToReference_417_1('footnote_plugin_reference_417_1_4');\" onkeypress=\"footnote_moveToReference_417_1('footnote_plugin_reference_417_1_4');\" ><sup id=\"footnote_plugin_tooltip_417_1_4\" class=\"footnote_plugin_tooltip_text\">[4]<\/sup><\/a><span id=\"footnote_plugin_tooltip_text_417_1_4\" class=\"footnote_tooltip\">le TGCM des d\u00e9bats religieux.<\/span><\/span><script type=\"text\/javascript\"> jQuery('#footnote_plugin_tooltip_417_1_4').tooltip({ tip: '#footnote_plugin_tooltip_text_417_1_4', tipClass: 'footnote_tooltip', effect: 'fade', predelay: 0, fadeInSpeed: 200, delay: 400, fadeOutSpeed: 200, position: 'top center', relative: true, offset: [-7, 0], });<\/script><\/p>\n<p>Alors o\u00f9 me situ\u00e9-je\u00a0? Quelque part entre les deux, dans une position que je qualifierais d\u2019\u00a0\u00ab\u00a0ob\u00e9issance critique\u00a0\u00bb. Je suis tr\u00e8s attach\u00e9 \u00e0 cette vision de l\u2019Eglise \u00ab\u00a0mater et magistra\u00a0\u00bb, aussi vais-je avoir tendance \u00e0 prendre ses pr\u00e9ceptes de fa\u00e7on positive, tout en en creusant les fondements pour les \u00e9prouver<span class=\"footnote_referrer\"><a role=\"button\" tabindex=\"0\" onclick=\"footnote_moveToReference_417_1('footnote_plugin_reference_417_1_5');\" onkeypress=\"footnote_moveToReference_417_1('footnote_plugin_reference_417_1_5');\" ><sup id=\"footnote_plugin_tooltip_417_1_5\" class=\"footnote_plugin_tooltip_text\">[5]<\/sup><\/a><span id=\"footnote_plugin_tooltip_text_417_1_5\" class=\"footnote_tooltip\">soit \u00e0 peu pr\u00e8s l\u2019inverse du traitement m\u00e9diatique du sujet\u00a0:D<\/span><\/span><script type=\"text\/javascript\"> jQuery('#footnote_plugin_tooltip_417_1_5').tooltip({ tip: '#footnote_plugin_tooltip_text_417_1_5', tipClass: 'footnote_tooltip', effect: 'fade', predelay: 0, fadeInSpeed: 200, delay: 400, fadeOutSpeed: 200, position: 'top center', relative: true, offset: [-7, 0], });<\/script>, et en sachant que l\u2019Eglise n\u2019impose pas grand-chose pour croire \u00e0 part le Credo et une grosse demi-douzaine de dogmes<span class=\"footnote_referrer\"><a role=\"button\" tabindex=\"0\" onclick=\"footnote_moveToReference_417_1('footnote_plugin_reference_417_1_6');\" onkeypress=\"footnote_moveToReference_417_1('footnote_plugin_reference_417_1_6');\" ><sup id=\"footnote_plugin_tooltip_417_1_6\" class=\"footnote_plugin_tooltip_text\">[6]<\/sup><\/a><span id=\"footnote_plugin_tooltip_text_417_1_6\" class=\"footnote_tooltip\">Pour tout dire, m\u00eame les apparitions ne sont pas de Foi. C\u2019est dire si les obligations sont l\u00e9g\u00e8res<\/span><\/span><script type=\"text\/javascript\"> jQuery('#footnote_plugin_tooltip_417_1_6').tooltip({ tip: '#footnote_plugin_tooltip_text_417_1_6', tipClass: 'footnote_tooltip', effect: 'fade', predelay: 0, fadeInSpeed: 200, delay: 400, fadeOutSpeed: 200, position: 'top center', relative: true, offset: [-7, 0], });<\/script>. Le reste, ce sont des lois ou des positions morales qui peuvent \u00eatre d\u00e9battues et modifi\u00e9es\u2026 Apr\u00e8s tout dans \u00ab\u00a0mater et magistra\u00a0\u00bb, il y a la double figure du parent et du professeur, qui sont plus exp\u00e9riment\u00e9s que soi (et ce n\u2019est pas d\u00e9connant\u00a0: je pense que l\u2019Eglise a une puissance de r\u00e9flexion tr\u00e8s sup\u00e9rieure \u00e0 la mienne\u00a0:D), mais qui ne sont pas exempts non plus d\u2019ignorances<span class=\"footnote_referrer\"><a role=\"button\" tabindex=\"0\" onclick=\"footnote_moveToReference_417_1('footnote_plugin_reference_417_1_7');\" onkeypress=\"footnote_moveToReference_417_1('footnote_plugin_reference_417_1_7');\" ><sup id=\"footnote_plugin_tooltip_417_1_7\" class=\"footnote_plugin_tooltip_text\">[7]<\/sup><\/a><span id=\"footnote_plugin_tooltip_text_417_1_7\" class=\"footnote_tooltip\">l\u00e0, c\u2019est le moment o\u00f9 je vous ressors mon exemple classique qui est celui de l\u2019avortement\u00a0: l\u2019opposition de l\u2019Eglise tient \u00e0 ce qu\u2019elle est convaincue que la vie humaine commence \u00e0 la&nbsp;&#x2026; <span class=\"footnote_tooltip_continue\"  onclick=\"footnote_moveToReference_417_1('footnote_plugin_reference_417_1_7');\">Continue reading<\/span><\/span><\/span><script type=\"text\/javascript\"> jQuery('#footnote_plugin_tooltip_417_1_7').tooltip({ tip: '#footnote_plugin_tooltip_text_417_1_7', tipClass: 'footnote_tooltip', effect: 'fade', predelay: 0, fadeInSpeed: 200, delay: 400, fadeOutSpeed: 200, position: 'top center', relative: true, offset: [-7, 0], });<\/script>, d\u2019impr\u00e9cisions voire d\u2019erreurs.<\/p>\n<p><em>Dans un prochain \u00e9pisode: Pourquoi les \u00e9lucubrations d&rsquo;un abruti du MidWest m&rsquo;engagent&#8230;<\/em><\/p>\n<div class=\"speaker-mute footnotes_reference_container\"> <div class=\"footnote_container_prepare\"><p><span role=\"button\" tabindex=\"0\" class=\"footnote_reference_container_label pointer\" onclick=\"footnote_expand_collapse_reference_container_417_1();\">References<\/span><span role=\"button\" tabindex=\"0\" class=\"footnote_reference_container_collapse_button\" style=\"display: none;\" onclick=\"footnote_expand_collapse_reference_container_417_1();\">[<a id=\"footnote_reference_container_collapse_button_417_1\">+<\/a>]<\/span><\/p><\/div> <div id=\"footnote_references_container_417_1\" style=\"\"><table class=\"footnotes_table footnote-reference-container\"><caption class=\"accessibility\">References<\/caption> <tbody> \r\n\r\n<tr class=\"footnotes_plugin_reference_row\"> <th scope=\"row\" class=\"footnote_plugin_index_combi pointer\"  onclick=\"footnote_moveToAnchor_417_1('footnote_plugin_tooltip_417_1_1');\"><a id=\"footnote_plugin_reference_417_1_1\" class=\"footnote_backlink\"><span class=\"footnote_index_arrow\">&#8593;<\/span>1<\/a><\/th> <td class=\"footnote_plugin_text\">oui, il se passe toujours quelque chose sur ma TL Twitter, qui pourrait alimenter quelqu\u2019un de plus prolixe que moi \u00e0 toute heure du jour ou de la nuit<\/td><\/tr>\r\n\r\n<tr class=\"footnotes_plugin_reference_row\"> <th scope=\"row\" class=\"footnote_plugin_index_combi pointer\"  onclick=\"footnote_moveToAnchor_417_1('footnote_plugin_tooltip_417_1_2');\"><a id=\"footnote_plugin_reference_417_1_2\" class=\"footnote_backlink\"><span class=\"footnote_index_arrow\">&#8593;<\/span>2<\/a><\/th> <td class=\"footnote_plugin_text\">oui, \u00e7a va \u00eatre un billet catholico-centr\u00e9. Vous pouvez encore partir si \u00e7a ne vous int\u00e9resse pas<\/td><\/tr>\r\n\r\n<tr class=\"footnotes_plugin_reference_row\"> <th scope=\"row\" class=\"footnote_plugin_index_combi pointer\"  onclick=\"footnote_moveToAnchor_417_1('footnote_plugin_tooltip_417_1_3');\"><a id=\"footnote_plugin_reference_417_1_3\" class=\"footnote_backlink\"><span class=\"footnote_index_arrow\">&#8593;<\/span>3<\/a><\/th> <td class=\"footnote_plugin_text\">je fais de tr\u00e8s grandes lignes qui correspondent \u00e0 ce que j\u2019ai retir\u00e9 des interventions. Je me suis peut-\u00eatre foutu le doigt dans l\u2019\u0153il jusqu\u2019\u00e0 peu pr\u00e8s l\u00e0, aussi invit\u00e9-je les auteurs, si j\u2019ai trahi leur pens\u00e9e, \u00e0 se plaindre en commentaire\u00a0\ud83d\ude09 <\/td><\/tr>\r\n\r\n<tr class=\"footnotes_plugin_reference_row\"> <th scope=\"row\" class=\"footnote_plugin_index_combi pointer\"  onclick=\"footnote_moveToAnchor_417_1('footnote_plugin_tooltip_417_1_4');\"><a id=\"footnote_plugin_reference_417_1_4\" class=\"footnote_backlink\"><span class=\"footnote_index_arrow\">&#8593;<\/span>4<\/a><\/th> <td class=\"footnote_plugin_text\">le TGCM des d\u00e9bats religieux.<\/td><\/tr>\r\n\r\n<tr class=\"footnotes_plugin_reference_row\"> <th scope=\"row\" class=\"footnote_plugin_index_combi pointer\"  onclick=\"footnote_moveToAnchor_417_1('footnote_plugin_tooltip_417_1_5');\"><a id=\"footnote_plugin_reference_417_1_5\" class=\"footnote_backlink\"><span class=\"footnote_index_arrow\">&#8593;<\/span>5<\/a><\/th> <td class=\"footnote_plugin_text\">soit \u00e0 peu pr\u00e8s l\u2019inverse du traitement m\u00e9diatique du sujet\u00a0:D<\/td><\/tr>\r\n\r\n<tr class=\"footnotes_plugin_reference_row\"> <th scope=\"row\" class=\"footnote_plugin_index_combi pointer\"  onclick=\"footnote_moveToAnchor_417_1('footnote_plugin_tooltip_417_1_6');\"><a id=\"footnote_plugin_reference_417_1_6\" class=\"footnote_backlink\"><span class=\"footnote_index_arrow\">&#8593;<\/span>6<\/a><\/th> <td class=\"footnote_plugin_text\">Pour tout dire, m\u00eame les apparitions ne sont pas de Foi. C\u2019est dire si les obligations sont l\u00e9g\u00e8res<\/td><\/tr>\r\n\r\n<tr class=\"footnotes_plugin_reference_row\"> <th scope=\"row\" class=\"footnote_plugin_index_combi pointer\"  onclick=\"footnote_moveToAnchor_417_1('footnote_plugin_tooltip_417_1_7');\"><a id=\"footnote_plugin_reference_417_1_7\" class=\"footnote_backlink\"><span class=\"footnote_index_arrow\">&#8593;<\/span>7<\/a><\/th> <td class=\"footnote_plugin_text\">l\u00e0, c\u2019est le moment o\u00f9 je vous ressors mon exemple classique qui est celui de l\u2019avortement\u00a0: l\u2019opposition de l\u2019Eglise tient \u00e0 ce qu\u2019elle est convaincue que la vie humaine commence \u00e0 la conception (et que l\u2019avortement est donc un meurtre, oppos\u00e9 au \u00ab\u00a0Tu ne tueras pas\u00a0\u00bb).\u00a0Le jour o\u00f9 l\u2019on d\u00e9termine l\u2019instant du d\u00e9but de la vie humaine, et s\u2019il s\u2019av\u00e8re que ce n\u2019est pas \u00e0 la conception mais \u00e0 X semaines, je ne vois pas pourquoi sa position n\u2019\u00e9voluerait pas.<\/td><\/tr>\r\n\r\n <\/tbody> <\/table> <\/div><\/div><script type=\"text\/javascript\"> function footnote_expand_reference_container_417_1() { jQuery('#footnote_references_container_417_1').show(); jQuery('#footnote_reference_container_collapse_button_417_1').text('\u2212'); } function footnote_collapse_reference_container_417_1() { jQuery('#footnote_references_container_417_1').hide(); jQuery('#footnote_reference_container_collapse_button_417_1').text('+'); } function footnote_expand_collapse_reference_container_417_1() { if (jQuery('#footnote_references_container_417_1').is(':hidden')) { footnote_expand_reference_container_417_1(); } else { footnote_collapse_reference_container_417_1(); } } function footnote_moveToReference_417_1(p_str_TargetID) { footnote_expand_reference_container_417_1(); var l_obj_Target = jQuery('#' + p_str_TargetID); if (l_obj_Target.length) { jQuery( 'html, body' ).delay( 0 ); jQuery('html, body').animate({ scrollTop: l_obj_Target.offset().top - window.innerHeight * 0.2 }, 380); } } function footnote_moveToAnchor_417_1(p_str_TargetID) { footnote_expand_reference_container_417_1(); var l_obj_Target = jQuery('#' + p_str_TargetID); if (l_obj_Target.length) { jQuery( 'html, body' ).delay( 0 ); jQuery('html, body').animate({ scrollTop: l_obj_Target.offset().top - window.innerHeight * 0.2 }, 380); } }<\/script>","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Ce devait \u00eatre un seul billet, mais je me suis rendu compte que ce serait trop long, trop fouillis, et que vous ne l&rsquo;auriez pas avant un temps certain vu mon rythme al\u00e9atoire d&rsquo;\u00e9criture, alors je l&rsquo;ai d\u00e9coup\u00e9 en plusieurs parties. Voici donc le premier volet de Catholicisme et cons\u00e9quences. Il y a quelques jours&hellip; <a class=\"more-link\" href=\"https:\/\/skro.hellabeth.com\/?p=417\">Poursuivre la lecture <span class=\"screen-reader-text\">Catholicisme et cons\u00e9quences ep. 1 &#8211; Avoir tort avec Rome<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"jetpack_post_was_ever_published":false,"_jetpack_newsletter_access":"","activitypub_content_warning":"","activitypub_content_visibility":"","footnotes":"","jetpack_publicize_message":"","jetpack_is_tweetstorm":false,"jetpack_publicize_feature_enabled":true,"jetpack_social_post_already_shared":true,"jetpack_social_options":{"image_generator_settings":{"template":"highway","enabled":false}}},"categories":[17],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-417","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-fourbi-et-orbi","entry"],"jetpack_publicize_connections":[],"jetpack_featured_media_url":"","jetpack_shortlink":"https:\/\/wp.me\/p4QCwI-6J","jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/skro.hellabeth.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/417","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/skro.hellabeth.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/skro.hellabeth.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/skro.hellabeth.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/skro.hellabeth.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=417"}],"version-history":[{"count":2,"href":"https:\/\/skro.hellabeth.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/417\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":521,"href":"https:\/\/skro.hellabeth.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/417\/revisions\/521"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/skro.hellabeth.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=417"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/skro.hellabeth.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcategories&post=417"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/skro.hellabeth.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Ftags&post=417"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}